they've got to get through the rocky shoals of grover norquist. >> right. >> and all those folks. >> and you have to get through the rocky shoals of nancy pelosi when you start talking entitlements. >> you see democrats who are, i think, talking very realistically about what needs to be done. on entitlements, i think the question isn't whether we have to do something about medicare, it's how we do something about medicare. >> so wouldn't that be -- and maybe it's naive of me to even bring this up -- but wouldn't that be important for them to take on what those are together and shoulder to shoulder? >> what i remember last summer when the president said to boehner essentially, let's lock arms and jump off the, you know, at that point it was a different kind of cliff, together. it's going to require both leaders. each is going to have to make sacrifices. in order to get this done. and i think that, you know, i think everybody recognizes the consequences of not getting it done. >> so how do you tell republicans that won't support a tax increase unless they believe entitlement reform's c